As Patrick Arenz says, there are few jobs that can change another person’s life forever. But being a trial lawyer is one of those jobs.
Patrick Arenz is a trial lawyer with the firm Robins Kaplan, working on patent and copyright law. And he’s a pretty big deal for the intellectual property cases he’s handled. But I first ran into Patrick’s name in a very different place. It was the story of one of his clients – not a tech company or an internet startup, but a young Hmong woman who was suing her abuser.
What made this case unique, is that the abuse happened in Laos, and the man was a U.S. citizen who was participating in sex tourism. Never before had a victim of sex-tourism won a civil suit against an abuser until this case.
This story got international attention, but it wasn’t Patrick’s first pro bono case. Since he became an attorney, he’s been finding ways to help clients who would otherwise have no access to the legal system.
In 2018, he won the Pro Bono Publico Award, given to attorneys who have shown a remarkable dedication to the public good. Somehow, he’s been doing this work in-between the massive multi-million dollar patent and copyright law cases he runs.
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Full Transcript
As Patrick Arenz says, "There are a few jobs that can change another person's life forever, but being a trial lawyer is one of those jobs." I'm Katie Wolf. And this is the Filevine Fireside.
Katie Wolf:
Patrick Arenz is a trial lawyer with the firm Robins Kaplan, working on patent and copyright law. And he's a pretty big deal for the intellectual property cases that he's handled. But I first ran into Patrick's name in a very different place. It was the story of one of his clients, not a tech company or an internet startup, but a young Hmong woman who was suing her abuser. What made this case unique was that the abuse happened in Laos and the man was a US citizen who was participating in sex tourism. Never before had a victim of sex tourism won a civil suit against an abuser until this case. This story got international attention, but it wasn't Patrick's first pro bono case. Since he became an attorney, he's been finding ways to represent clients who had otherwise have no access to the legal system. In 2018, he won the Pro Bono Publico Award, given to attorneys who have shown remarkable dedication to the public good. Somehow he's been doing this work in between the massive multimillion dollar patent and copyright law cases he runs. We're so grateful you're here to talk with us today, Patrick.
Patrick Arenz:
Thanks for having me Kate.
Katie Wolf:
So the big question on everyone's mind is how do you do it? How do you run a successful law practice and also make space to do pro bono work?
Patrick Arenz:
Well, that's a good question and one I'm still trying to answer myself. For me, it's always really been a question of figuring out after you accept a case because a lot of the pro bono cases I've had the privilege of handling over the course of my career were simply too compelling to pass up. And I knew there were cases that I needed to handle and try my best to help that client in a given situation. And at that point it was something I recognize I'd need to figure out how I fit it in the rest of my schedule. And given the importance of those cases, I always found a way to do it, but it's not something that fits neatly into eight to five job or nine to five job.
Katie Wolf:
What is it that made you make the decision to be an intellectual property attorney dealing with those issues, but to also have this other life that you're leading, where you're also running these other cases, dealing with human rights and issues like that?
Patrick Arenz:
So I always wanted to be a trial lawyer and Robins Kaplan provided me a platform to be a trial lawyer at the highest level. And that includes representing clients with the most at stake with the means to pay for representation. But a core principle of our firm has always been to represent those who need access to justice but can't afford to. And so serving as a trial lawyer, Robins Kaplan's always given me an opportunity to do both.
Katie Wolf:
Can you tell us a little bit about this case that garnered so much international attention? How did it first come to you?
Patrick Arenz:
Absolutely. So I think you're referring to the Vang versus Prataya case and it was a case that had been on file for a number of years, and it was being litigated in the district of Minnesota in US district court. And the case had kind of come to ahead. The court had denied summary judgment and the attorneys knew the case was going to be tried in May of 2017. And given, I think my background with pro bono work, as well as our firm's commitment to pro bono work, the case was referred to us as something that we were asked to look at and see if we would take over as trial council. And so I was contacted in kind of the January, February of 2017 timeframe and asked if I'd work on it. And it was kind of one of those cases I was describing before, where once I learned the facts, I knew there was no way I could say no. And it's been a privilege to work on.
Katie Wolf:
In addition to how this case has changed the life of your client, how has it shaped the legal playing field?
Patrick Arenz:
Well, hopefully it has brought light to kind of the horrors and the unconscionable crime of sex tourism. Sex tourism is kind of referred to as kind of the concept of usually an American citizen that travels overseas for some sort of illicit sexual conduct. And it is a crime that the US state department estimates to be over a $1 billion a year industry. So it happens way more than I ever knew or could fathom existed. And hopefully this case is bringing light to the fact of the abuses that do go on.
Katie Wolf:
$1 billion, I had no idea it was such big business. So why is it that this is the first ever verdict of its kind? Why is this never been successfully tried before?
Patrick Arenz:
I don't know the answer to that. I can speculate that most of the times almost in every situation the victim or the would be plaintiff is overseas and probably overseas in impoverished country. And so you're talking about someone that the odds are stacked against them, that they'll ever have a chance at access to justice, ever have a chance to access a lawyer. It'd be difficult for these cases to be done in a kind of a billable type arrangement. So there would be a need for a pro bono representation. And more than anything, I think it's just the challenge and the difficulty of having the victim touch base with a lawyer in the United States who could then pursue it. I think that's one of the biggest challenges with these types of cases. The Vang case was a little bit different in that the plaintiff for reasons unrelated to the case, had the opportunity to immigrate over to the United States. So she was here in the United States when she filed her lawsuit. But unfortunately, I don't think that's an option for many of the women or children who are victims of sex tourism.
Katie Wolf:
Right. Right. Would you like to share any information about other pro bono work that you've taken on?
Patrick Arenz:
I'm happy to talk about a range of cases I've done. It's been a core part of my practice as a lawyer throughout my whole career. And I've also served as the firm's chair of our pro bono committee. And so I've seen a lot of work, great work that my colleagues have done. And there are kind of two ways I think of going about pro bono work, especially within a firm. One is, I see a lot of my colleagues that are really focused on a particular issue and maybe it's immigration, maybe it's representing survivors of domestic violence, some sort of issue that an individual is passionate about. And those individuals and colleagues kind of handle a number of very similar types of cases, maybe it'll be orders for protection. And that has a value because then that lawyer develops sort of a subspecialty and can handle those cases more efficiently and more successfully. I've kind of gone a different route with my pro bono practice.
Katie Wolf:
Yeah. You've been doing cases all over the place. You've been doing asylum law. You've been looking at police reform.
Patrick Arenz:
Absolutely, Kate. And so what I've always done is I've tried to, whenever I see an opportunity for a case where I feel like I can use my experience as a trial lawyer best, to best help someone in need, I've usually gravitated to those kinds of cases. And so the first case when I passed the bar, I accepted a couple weeks later was an asylum case for a 19 year old out of Ethiopia who had asked for asylum here in the United States, because she had political views in Ethiopia about women's rights and equal rights that were being persecuted. And she was threatened if she were to ever return to Ethiopia. And so after a contested trial and over a year of litigation, and sometime even after trial, we ultimately secured an order that granted her asylum. But since then I've handled felony criminal defense cases. I've handled custody disputes under the Hague convention in federal court, as well as the sex tourism case you mentioned earlier and several others, including smaller ones like various orders for protection for survivors of domestic violence.
Katie Wolf:
So as I listen to your history, I feel like it makes sense you got this Pro Bono Publico Award, because you really are kind of going above and beyond to do some of this pro bono work. Do you feel like there's any point in your history or any reason, experience that sort of led you to have this dedication to supporting people who need help who can't give you money for it?
Patrick Arenz:
Well, I think at the highest level, I view kind of serving as a lawyer as a profession and not a job. And one thing that differentiates a profession in that regard is service to others. And it kind of intertwines with my firm because I really view kind of the foundation for my pro bono work starting over 80 years ago. And that's when Robins Kaplan was originally founded and it was founded by two lawyers that decided to start their own firm because the antisemitism in the Twin Cities was so bad that they were denied jobs at other firms, even though they were more than qualified. And from that day forward, our firm has been dedicated to serving everyone, whether it's individual, small companies or big companies, but making sure that everyone has access to justice. And so that was part of what drew me to the firm. But also since that day, has been a core part of kind of my practice and my colleagues practice.
Katie Wolf:
I want to ask you if it's ever disorienting. As a patent and copyright attorney, you have to know a lot of the details of these very, very detailed, scientific issues. Is it disorienting to move from that area of law into these other areas of law where you do your pro bono work or do you kind of appreciate that diversity?
Patrick Arenz:
I relish it. I think it has greatly improved my abilities as a lawyer to handle a wide range of legal issues. And oftentimes, issues of first impression like you were describing before. There's very little case law out there about sex tourism cases and handling being able to represent a variety and really a diverse group of clients, I think only improves a lawyer's ability to serve whatever client they're serving at that given moment.
Katie Wolf:
We should also add that you're not only working on your own cases. You're also building pro bono work into the culture of the firm. One of the ways you do that is you have first year associates help survivors of domestic violence. Can you tell us a little bit about that program?
Patrick Arenz:
You bet. So we do recognize as a firm that there are a lot of collateral benefits to doing pro bono work. So first and foremost, we do pro bono work because it's the right thing to do. It's the right thing to do as lawyers for our community. But we recognize that there's valuable trial experience to gain, there's valuable experience to representing individual clients. And we tend to see the lawyers that come to our firm are interested in being lawyers and they're interested in being on their feet and arguing in court.
Patrick Arenz:
So we developed a program to work with Tubman Family Alliance, which is a nonprofit here in the Twin Cities of Minnesota, where we would have each first year attorney that joins our firm partner with a senior trial lawyer at the firm. And the first year attorney would get a case and they would be tasked with seeking an order for protection on behalf of a survivor of domestic violence. And that offered a great opportunity for lawyers to get into court early on in their career, but to do so in a responsible way too, where they're being mentored by a senior trial lawyer to make sure that it's their case, it's the new lawyer's case, but to make sure that we're doing the best we can to represent our client.
Katie Wolf:
So if there were attorneys listening in who were maybe thinking, I'd love to do more pro bono work, but just don't have the time. Do you have any words, any arguments for them about why they ought to increase the amount of pro bono work they're doing?
Patrick Arenz:
Well, the main principle that's always driven me is that there are really, if you think about it few professions, few jobs that offer someone the ability to change other people's lives forever and being a lawyer is one of those professions that does. And so there's never enough time in the day, but if you're thinking about doing pro bono work, just try to do something even small, whether it's attending a clinic for one day where there's not a longer term commitment or otherwise kind of investigate some opportunities at your local nonprofits, particularly for an issue that you may feel passionate about. What I found, especially as chair of the firms pro bono committee was once you get your feet wet and once you get any exposure to pro bono work, it will almost always lead to more pro bono work because there is a level of satisfaction in helping people that otherwise have no one else to turn to. And so just getting involved at all I think, is exponentially likely to increase someone's chances of doing more pro bono work going forward and it will be satisfying.
Katie Wolf:
I love that way you put it, that you first take on the case because you have to take on the case and then you figure out a way to make it work.
Patrick Arenz:
That's the only way it seems to work. If you're just looking for kind of a perfect fit in your schedule that's not likely to happen in this job.
Katie Wolf:
I want to switch gears a little bit and ask you about a term that I've heard you use a few times that I know is probably an important term for you and that's the word or the word trial lawyer. What are your thoughts on what makes someone a trial lawyer and how that's different from say just a litigator?
Patrick Arenz:
Well, I think first and foremost, the difference is that you have to be willing to stand up in front of a jury and present your case and persuade the jury as to why your client is right and deserves a verdict. As far as what it takes to be a trial lawyer, I'm still trying to figure that out myself. I think it's a humbling job. It's a difficult job. And it's one that no matter how many years of experience, no matter how many trials you've tried, I don't think anyone completely masters it, but I do think it requires a willingness to answer the bell and to stand up for someone else's interest and take on their problem as your own. And like I said before, go in front of a jury and persuade that jury as to why they should solve your client's problem in their favor.
Katie Wolf:
I want to ask you a few questions about the legal work that you actually get paid to do. So how did you come to practice this area of law, intellectual property and patent and copyright law?
Patrick Arenz:
Well, I first came to the firm when I graduated law school in 2006 and I came to the firm, as I mentioned before because of its reputation as sort of a high stakes trial law firm. And our firm then and today handles a wide range of cases ranging from individual and mass torts to commercial litigation, to the IP litigation that I've tended to focus my career on. At the time our IP department really focused its practice on patent litigation. And we were a unique firm in that historically patent litigators or patent trial lawyers all tended to have science backgrounds and we approached the practice a little bit differently. We had, and do have a host of PhD science advisors on staff. And we have a number of attorneys then, and now who do have advanced science backgrounds to help with some of the technical issues.
Patrick Arenz:
But we also recognize that there's a role for individuals without a science degree or a technical background who enjoy technology and who also kind of bring a different viewpoint, a different level of analysis. And we've found that having teams with sort of that variety or that diversity tend to lead, do a better work product. And so while most of our attorneys in the IP department today have a science background, I'm one that does not, but it's something that's worked pretty well in terms of having a case teams that have kind of a, that variety of kind of background. And it really helps in terms of presenting the best possible case to a judge or a jury.
Katie Wolf:
What else do you think it takes to be a good trial lawyer in your field?
Patrick Arenz:
I think the number one intangible is resilience. As I mentioned before, being a trial lawyer is a humbling profession. You're often dealing with very skilled and aggressive opposing counsel and you deal with the uncertainty of judges and juries. And so there are times that the judge gets it wrong or the jury may get it wrong. And you have to be able to have the confidence to get back up and to represent your next client with the greatest competence and greatest effort that you can muster.
Katie Wolf:
At a time when much of the legal market has been pretty flat, there's been a lot of growth in intellectual property law. Is it something that you would recommend to law students or young attorneys who are trying to figure out their course?
Patrick Arenz:
Yeah. I would really recommend younger attorneys to follow their interest and their passion regardless of subject matter. But if they do have interest in IP work, I think we see in the economy that many facets of IP law drive the economy, especially in the area of technology, but even in the area of kind of copyrights and creative arts. So I think that will be an area that continues to grow in the future and it will be an area of need for qualified and exceptional attorney.
Katie Wolf:
So I'm going to play devil's advocate here for a second. And because there's some people who worry that if intellectual property is protected too much, it could hinder innovation and competitiveness. Do you believe that there's ever a danger in having too many intellectual property suits?
Patrick Arenz:
Well, there's always a fine line between IP protection and ensuring that the public has the opportunity to continue to develop in either areas of technology or the arts. And that's what the law's done over the course of time. So I haven't seen in my practice that we've experienced a moment where the economy has suffered because of too much IP protection. And if anything, I think when you look around the world, you see other countries expanding and granting more IP protection, modeling their systems off of our laws. So I think that is a pretty telling fact and kind of reaffirms the value of a strong IP system.
Katie Wolf:
Can you talk a little bit more about telling the story? What are tools that you use both in your paid work and in your pro bono work? What are tools that you use to tell a compelling story?
Patrick Arenz:
More than anything it's through people and it's through the client. And so I think the first step is to be a good listener. And what I've learned is, especially in my pro bono work is you have to invest in time to hear, hear from your client to understand all the facts and to understand whether it's pro bono or billable client, what that client went through and why that client has a problem that needs to be solved in the legal system. And so I view then my job as a trial lawyer to take those facts and take all the information and be able to kind of funnel it down so that it can be understood in an efficient and effective manner. But step one is really getting information and getting the evidence to be able to tell a persuasive story.
Katie Wolf:
For our last few minutes I'd love to backtrack a little bit to some of the pro bono work again. And with your work with asylum law, do you have any thoughts on that area of law or recommendations to attorneys who might be working on it?
Patrick Arenz:
I would recommend that that's an area of law that's going to require an intense amount of litigation and that litigation is going to be needed from the bar at large. And so it'll be a ripe area for obvious reasons for lawyers across the country to be handling some of the most vulnerable clients in need.
Katie Wolf:
All right. My final question is this, your work was once highlighted on the Jimmy Fallon show. Is that true?
Patrick Arenz:
That is true.
Katie Wolf:
Can you tell us about that? What was that like?
Patrick Arenz:
That's an ongoing case in which we represent the individual and company that came up with an idea for five single emotion color coded characters, and had presented it to Disney for a number of years well before the movie Inside Out. And that case is pending because it's a copyright and breach of contract case. And it garnered a lot of attention, a number of newspapers and online articles. And then we did all get a chuckle seeing that it was highlighted by Jimmy Fallon. [inaudible 00:24:09] Enjoyed as well.
Katie Wolf:
So you can make a pitch to Disney, but then they'll just do it on their own. Patrick, we appreciate so much that you have taken this time amid all of you're high pressure work, high stakes work to talk with us. Thank you so much for talking with us today.
Patrick Arenz:
Thank you, Kate.
Katie Wolf:
This has been the Filevine Fireside. I'm Katie Wolf. See you next time.